Weights are off on manufactured goods

#1

It looks like there is an error on the weight calculation of manufactured goods, by at least a factor of 10. That would explain the whole shipping thing where everyone is convinced you can’t ship raw materials.

Here is the least controversial item.

DW weight .1T
H20 weight 1T

DW is still water it would still weight the same amount. Maybe the formula was based on different output volumes for the final product.

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#2

Wow.

H20 is 1T for every 1.0 cubic -volume-. DW is .1T for every 0.1 cubic -volume-. So 10 DW weighs the same as 1 H20 does when occupying the same -volume- and vice versa. Which makes sense because the DW would be seperated into individual bottles (or some really big barrels in this case) where has the H20 just occupies a full volume before being changed to DW.

You really need to learn these things more before immediately saying ‘this is wrong’. Also speak for yourself, everyone else seems to be getting along just fine for the most part.

#3

“Talonos

H20 is 1T for every 1.0 cubic -volume-. DW is .1T for every 0.1 cubic -volume-. So 10 DW weighs the same as 1 H20 does …… “

Can you please just stop all you do is want to say what I say or other people say is wrong. People know the numbers are wrong on DW they joke about it in chat, no one wants to say it in here because it will affect shipping. Just like people laugh about the weight of prefabs. You don’t even read all if what I type you are in to big of a hurry to prove me wrong. At least read all of what I typed out first, If you don’t understand what I typed ask about what you don’t get. I try to just keep it short.

“Maybe the formula was based on different output volumes for the final product.” did you see this part? it looks like they unified some of the numbers but did not change the weights and sizes.

DW takes 10 units of water, so 10 tonnes of water to produce 7 units of DW or .7 Tonnes of water. It looks like before they would output 70 units of DW but decided it was easier to just use tonnes for everything and when they did that none of the weights and sizes got changed on the final products. So yes if you produced 70 units of DW or 100 units with PG it would make sense.

“Also speak for yourself, everyone else seems to be getting along just fine for the most part.”

I am not having any problems in the game I make money this again just you deciding this.

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#4

Again, I did read what you said and it seems like you are simply trying to influence the feedback with both -incorrect- knowledge and disinformation. I read the chats and other than the fact this is a -realistic simulation- still in alpha, nit picking the exact weights of stuff is a bit second priority. :stuck_out_tongue:

Again, you are failing to see the intended realism. Yes, it takes 10 H20 to produce 7 DW, that’s because in the process of purifying the water, some of it is lost due to evaporation, filtration, transferring, etc. Using PG, like in a water filtration system, enables it to be a closed system, thus keeping water preserved and granting an even 10 for 10 yield. The weight ratio being as they are is to make shipping DW easier, plus 1 DW is roughly 1.5-2x the price of 1 H20. So what exactly is the problem with this?

Then perhaps you should be thinking about ways to adapt to the circumstances of the game better, rather than ushering the dev’s to change the circumstances.

#5

How about this here is how I see it when I look at it

7 units DW need 10 units H2O, so then I look at the weights. H20 = 1 tonne, DW = .1 tonne

so to me those numbers don’t add up.

1 Units H2O to 7 units DW makes sense to me 1 tonne water – impurities =.7t DW

10 units H2o = 70 units DW makes sense to me 10 tonne water – 3 tonne impurities = 7 tonne DW

or

10units water = 7 DW makes sense to me when Dw = 1 tonne each.

So any of those can change and it makes sense to me but each change, changes other things. So instead of you just telling me I am wrong I would just like a response from the dev on how to read the screens. Maybe I am the only person that thinks the numbers should work out that way.

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#6

The water being 93% sand thing has been covered before and the developers are aware of it. Got any other examples?
Lol didn’t mean to reply to you specifically, I don’t really understand how these forums work yet.

#7

Again, you have to factor in -volume-. 1 H2O = 1.0 cubic volume (1 ton of water in a big cube), 1 DW = .1 cubic volume, so 10 DW = 1.0 cubic volume (1 ton , of 10 seperate smaller cubes of water)

How is it possible to give a fraction (.7 = 7/10) of an inventory item? :stuck_out_tongue:

And you are using what’s called an improper equation here. 10 units of H2O , minus the 3 lost in processing, does equal the same weight as 70 units of DW, ( 7 H2O * 1t * 1m3 = 70 DW * 1t * .1m3 ) = 7

If H2O and DW are 1 ton each, and 10 H2O converts to 70 DW, then you would have 70 tons of DW when only starting out with 10 tons of H2O? :crazy_face:

Well, it’s called an improper equation for that very reason, because at some point it becomes wrong. And changing DW to 1 T / 1.0m3 , just makes it take up more inventory space, which makes shipping / storing it the same efficiency as H2O.

There are indeed others whom -think- the numbers should be that way, common misconception with improper equations.

Sounds like the H2O to DW process has come a long way. :grin:

#8

I know you dont care but BBH is off multiple ways

its made from alum and Iron but I dont see where its indexed for the 2 weights

should be BBH-I (18 tonnes) and BBH-A (8tonnes)

I have asked for both my threads to be locked or deleted if they are still open in few hours I can post some more for you to laugh at.

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#9

Oh I care, only enough to educate someone so they keep from influencing poor decisions which thus ruin my own experience. :wink:

If you simply bring up the BBH item window, will tell you the weight is 0.5T per 0.8 cubic volumes. This means 10 BBH will weigh 5T and take up 8 cubic volumes of space. There is no specific metal based construction prefabs, other than the recipes, because realistically the alloy comes out to be carbon steel anyways, just with varying build grades. And given this is space, probably best just to say it’s AAA steel!

And doubtful your threads will be deleted, because as in need of correction that you may be, my replies on the other hand, will perhaps be useful for other players who come along thinking the same things as you. :stuck_out_tongue:

So thanks!

#10

The funniest part is with all your attempts to say I don’t know what I am doing you end up agreeing with me. And the sand thing was very weak I expected more from both of you, sand would actually filter the water and not be drawn up with the water.

Your comment on the BBH agrees with everything I have said for the info on BBH to work out the factory needs to make 10 and the consumption go up by 10 then all the numbers sort of work out but only for alu, and you even agree they dont show both so that is missing there needs to be BBH-I and BBH -A. the I would need to be 15T or 1.5T if factory makes 10.

“probably best just to say it’s AAA steel”

AAA steel is not any type of steel, and they were made with iron not steel. My guess is Iron in the game is actually structural steel (A36 is want to look it up) but its easier to call it iron. Because long time ago it was called iron work.

“useful for other players who come along thinking the same things as you”

I would be more useful than you could imagine. Just not in the way you think.

#11

Hey I’m with you buddy, I think the weights and everything are off too but I expect these are all placeholder values and there will be a reality check on mass and volume later.
You thought I was making fun of you with the 93% sand comment? Nah man, I was poking fun at the game.
You know, since purifying 10t of water and only getting 0.7t of water implies that 93% of it is impurities

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#12

Unsure where exactly I ever said I agree with you. :laughing: And as I’ve only been the game a month, actually thought Jejune was partially serious in that the H2O to DW mechanic used to be more unforgiving.

Again, raising the numbers of tonnage and volume just make storing and shipping these things less efficient. Increasing the yields just results in the price dropping, unless the build costs are increased. Either way it leads to devaluing.

And yeah I’m aware of the grades of structural steel. Considering you disregarded my previous post explaining the process of carbon steel (which is used for structural steel), would also know that Iron is used to make steel, along with aluminum based slag. Also you would know ‘AAA’ , -was-, a joke. :stuck_out_tongue:

#14

This issue in particular has become somewhat of an inside joke among experienced players. It doesn’t help that each pioneer (presumably human) consumes 8.4 kg of rations per day, and drinks 4 liters of water. Our workers must be absolute units to consume so much! Then we get the the smart dudes (scientists), who consume 42 kg of MEA each! No wonder they also need 1.5 kg of medical supplies every day!

Fundamentally, at this stage of the game’s development, weights and volume exist ONLY to affect shipping and storage. Some weights may be accurate, others not so much. This is an early-alpha version, and we are primarily testing how it plays, how it feels, how the game progresses, and how the community interacts.

To me, the more serious issue is actually the way in which people are interacting. Through previous tests, we have worked hard to ensure that all our interactions have remained friendly and respectful. This test run has seen an influx of many new players, and we must all be consciously attempting to maintain an excellent standard of interaction and communication.

Talonos, your opening statement comes across as condescending. It is important to remember that your perspective, and your views, are the result of your unique physiology and experience. What may seem immediately apparent to you, may not be observed the same way by others. Further, when viewing the same set of observations, two individuals - even with similar experience - may arrive at vastly different conclusions.

You are correct in your assertion that DW and H2O have the same weight/volume ratio, however, the way in which you have reacted to Gorron is toxic to this community. We are all here primarily to have fun, please keep this in mind and be respectful of your fellow players.

Gorron, through reading your replies in this thread, your actual question/observation has become apparent to me. I feel that your opening post did not accurately convey the same observation, it feels incomplete. When you write a post, continually ask yourself “How will this be understood by someone else? Someone who does not know the issue the same way I do?” Doing this has helped me to write more succinct and concise posts.

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#15

I tried to just make it short based on the numbers from the game.

The factory lists 10 units of water to 7 units drinking water just units. So when I look at the weights the weights of the units are different and to make the match anything can be changed but it does not matter how I explain it I am still just told I am wrong. And even after all the other explanations and jokes no one has explained about the unit difference . So yes like I explained before 10 units of water making 70 units DW the weights total to an amount to make sense. But even when I post that I am told that is wrong.

I know the weights are for shipping that is my whole entire point. So for shipping the factory needs 10T of water to make .7T of DW, DW can weight less but it would be more units. So now if I would talk about shipping water I would again be endlessly told I don’t understand. But if the weights were correct then the actual interaction of correct shipping would take place you would look and say oh I can buy 10 water for X ship it for Y and make my own Dw for Z, or I can buy dw for X1 and ship it for Y1 for a total of Z1. None of that works out now with the units off.

There could even end up agreements on the planets that made water where no one would sell water, they would only sell DW. So carry that through to every item where to only me I guess the units are off and none of that is happening. Or someday there could be an interplanetary exchange and water would only trade on that, And DW would trade on the global

Same as the BBH you have alum and Iron it makes sense when the weights are correct because alu can cost more but the BBH-A would cost a lot less to ship. The BBH-I would be used in closer systems and the BBH-A in more distant systems. But again I accept that I am just not smart enough for the game because I guess I am the only person in the game that thinks the units should convert to the same numbers in the end.

And I does not matter how long of a post I type I am still just told I dont understand the game or what ever I am doing I should not be doing. Before deleted my account from the game I made BDE on Prom, I explained why I changed in other post where I was told again over and over I don’t know what I am doing.

I would buy C and H off the market I could spend $1000 on inputs make 200 PPE for $5 /unit then take 150 PPE and make a BDE for $450 and sell them for $2000 on the market. both factories took 8hrs it was a perfectly timed loop. I purchased everything from the market for multiple reasons, one of them being shipping. Say I would need 10H (C was all made locally) there was no way for me to just order 10H and get it. When I would calculate the cost of flying my ship there and back it would be $8,000 - $10,000 round trip. Maybe it was $6,000 to $8,000 after the changes one fuel got cheaper but the usage was increased by 3. And again any time I would ask about shipping or shipping raw materials I was told I did not understand.

So I am done I and just not smart enough for the game, I hit the remove account button or what ever it is called on the website but it did not delete my forum account it will not stop sending me updates. I have asked for it to be deleted but its not yet.

So instead of telling me over and over line by line how every point in this post is wrong you can laugh at my ignorance yourself Just explain to me one thing just one. How can the factory screen show one set of numbers and the weight screen show something else when you add all the units up to someone as uniformed as myself they should still add up to around the same totals. Because yes H2O can be 1T and DW .1T but to me you would not use 10T of water to make .7t DW it seems to me the same units are not used on all the screens but hey that’s just me and this is my last post.

Have fun laughing at all this and playing the game.

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#16

I should add one thing just to be clear when I calculated the fuel cost for my ship I would click on my ship tell it to fly somewhere and then I would look at the totals that it would list that I needed for fuel and then look on the market for what each fuel cost and that would be my cost. I did not actually fly the ship there and see if the numbers end up the same.

And for BDE thing it should have been cheaper to make BDE on prom(just to me) just buying gas because to me anyways it should be cheap to just ship gas the shipping a final BDE but I never got that far to check those numbers, DW seemed like a much easier one to start with.

So I guess my last my post not my last post at least I am consistent and again numbers were my problem.

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#17

Now that I totally agree with, the consumption rates -should- be reduced for certain things as biologically they are a bit much. Unless that is intended simply to increase consumption costs for the sake of challenging revenue. The consumption rates of items are also another issue unrelated to the weight of said items.

This is what I meant by there are perhaps more important things being concerned with at the moment other than nit picking the weights of individual items. :wink:

I was only addressing tier one things as I’ve barely even began looking ahead, noticing these very same things myself in fact such as scientists using so much MEA, however I also see there are discussions about that with more experienced people such as yourself taking part in them!

Which also is the point I was making, in that this is a -team- oriented based simulator that takes it a step further by teams having to put reliance on -other- teams to make sure the entire economy remains functioning and prosperous. So changing things on Prom to make it easier for manufacturers to start there, somewhat defeats the purpose of intending them to start on Katoa or Montem.

And if my opening statement comes across as condescending, that’s because it was intended to be so. If you look at the conversations discussed from the previous " Feedback on starting on Prom " thread. Also to insinuate my behavior is toxic is rather extreme, considering I did in fact answer the question properly with the -correct- information and make a genuine attempt to help someone learn. Being unfamiliar with cubic volumes has nothing to do with observations, that’s simply -not knowing-. Since when is constructive criticism being toxic? :stuck_out_tongue:

All I’ve done is fix Gorrons math, in both threads, and try to explain to the best of my limited ability, what seems to be, the intended logic, fully aware that there are still many improvements to which can be made. I’ve actually not given any of my personal opinion in these threads, other than said condescension, only trying to make sense of what Gorron is saying and stating the facts as needed.

#18

Everyone, I am sorry no one from the team responded earlier. We are all visiting friends and family over the weekend.

This (and the other topic) ended up in a pretty hefty and heated discussions and this probably should not be necessary. Here are a few background information on why and how the values (weight, volume, recipe numbers) are what they are.

Ever since we started the first alpha (this is the 7th now) we have been tweaking and fiddling with the recipes and the material tree in general. As you can image “getting it right” is incredibly hard and sometimes we made changes to the recipe to fix one thing and simply forgot the other.

Drinking water and water is such a thing. We are very aware that the numbers don’t add up. We have a ticket for that in the issue tracker but haven’t had time to fix it. In my opinion transporting water should be hard, that is way it ways a lot and occupies a lot of space. Drinking water on the other hand is a bit more voluminous since it is “bottled” in smaller packages. I am pretty confident that we forgot to adjust weight/volumes when we changed the recipe the last time.

Same goes for the prefabs. Usually we try to get the recipes and their cost right first, then we think about weights and volumes. Personally I think that prefabs should be heavier and more voluminous to represent their recipes.

Please keep in mind, that we cannot achieve ultra-realism here. We try to mimic reality in some places and like to think about the game as down-to-earth sci-fi, but after all this is a fictional game and at some point in its design we need to “cheat” and over-simplify things.

@Prdgi Thanks for reminding everyone that our interactions should always stay friendly and respectful. I totally agree!

@Talonos and @anon66489914 I am not sure how to solve your conflict other than by saying please accept that you don’t agree and that is okay. Also please try not to read too much into the actual weight / volume numbers. As I said, it is a game, at some points we have to make decisions that are in favor of game design and not realism.

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#19

Here is my final comment. I don’t understand why not one person will go in the game click on DW look at the factory page and see what it says and type what they see. Instead its considered acceptable for someone to say they have fix my math and no one, not even the developer will just look at the page for DW and then come back here and say what the game displays.

Like I have said when I click on DW it says 10 water to make 7 DW, then when I click on the weights water is 1T and DW is .1T so to me 10T of water makes .7T of DW. Every person I have showed the game to sees the same numbers that I do and they come up with the same values. The only response I get in the game is that I don’t understand that DW is in a bottle. And no one ever comments once about how much water was used to make the DW.

In the other post the guy in there that saw the game the same as me was endlessly attacked too, I would go in chat in the game and ask people to look at and respond to my post even if they did not agree with me. The guy that is convinced I am dumb would type I don’t understand basic math on sizes in the game chat. And the one guy that said something ends up endlessly attacked. There was no possible way for anything to come from that post. So then the same thing happens with this post and in general the response is to just be nicer to the next dumb guy.

And all of this would of ended if anyone would of looked at DW and said oh it does use 10T of water the numbers are off a bit. or if the 10 water on the factory page don’t weight 1T each the someone could of explained that as well and all of it would have been done. Maybe I did not explain it the best but everyone has the same game anyone could of clicked on DW looked at the page that shows what DW is made from, clicked around some more found the weights and then posted the totals they have.

Just something for you to think about for when the next dumb guy shows up.

And no one needs to waste any of their time to respond to me, its just something for you to think about for next time.

Enjoy your weekend and have fun in the game.

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#20

I’ve been part of the team for over a year now, but you guys had to pick my first and only week of sick leave to start a somewhat heated discussion here. :smile:

The contents of your disagreement aside – I’m not involved in any of the game design decisions, so I can’t tell you much on that front --, @molp pretty much said it all: The numbers are all evolving due to balancing adjustments and sometimes might not make sense if you think about them realistically. If you find that they are off, we are grateful for your feedback. Many past balancing changes were based on community input, so please do keep that coming (in a civil manner). We read and appreciate it, and we often act on it quickly or at least put it on our internal to do list.

That being said, I feel like this conversation is starting to move in circles and hasn’t been updated in two days, so I’ll close the topic now. Feel free to open new topics for suggestions that require their own discussions, but also keep in mind that you can add your thoughts in Bugs and Improvements as well as Suggestions and Ideas.

Cheers! :rocket:

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closed #21