“Talons: Again, I’m completely self sufficient. Harvesting my own H20 for DW, growing my own food crops on farms, processing both, -and- making Carbon. ….”
Again overall I am just talking about Prom, and the MM selling the items made there. So when I look at a building I look at buying all the items off the market. And I have not even mentioned how the HYF cancels out the soil so carbon could be made on the metal planet too. Maybe later there will be bigger land farms. Maybe the MM prices are just off for some items.
So taking DW,
you get around 35 water from a Rig in a day and you need to wonder what is a fair price for a building, selling at 25 you make 875 a day.
So then a farm needs 4 units of water to make 8 items, MM sell price 105 so 840 – 100 farm only make 740 then
Then if you go to DW you need 80 water so 2000 in water to make 56 DW so to make the same 875 as the Rig you need to make 51 per DW, the MM is only 31 when people see that they think that it should cost somewhere around that
Actually FE (Iron) has a volume of 1 , so 5 BBH take up the same volume as 4 FE. Also AL (Aluminum) is only 2.7T at volume of 1, significantly less. Plus look at the ores themselves and production yields. Working with AL is much better for both being more efficient and getting SIL, however seems like AL is something better to go for later on.
Also, the numbers are actually based on fact. Pure iron has a density of 7,850 kg/m^3. Wrought iron is slightly less dense than pure iron, at 7,750 kg/m^3. So if anything the prefabs should weigh more by what you’re saying, which would only make shipping them more costly.
True, a HYF can provide crops to make RAT and feed a mining colony so there would be no need to buy or send food, which makes sense and depending on the water level may even be more feasible than growing COT or RCO on Prom with a HYF. But on Katoa or Montem, seeing as the water is lower, a HYF there may very well only produce slower than someone on Prom with a regular Farm, Agri experts and the CoGC program. Also significant factors.
I only sell H20 to players whom contribute to the CoGC and looking to get a small batch filled at minimum price, otherwise it’s more cost effective to convert the H20 to DW.
Again, I only sell BEA , NUT, GRN to players whom contribute to the CoGC and looking to get a small batch filled at minimum price, otherwise it’s more profitable to convert to RAT.
Um, maybe for some reason it takes -you-, 2000 H20, to produce 56 DW, but for me with 2 food processing experts, 2000 H20 would produce 1400 DW and if using the PE recipe comes out to 2000 DW even. So you must be doing something severely wrong if your H20 to DW production ratio is that costly. Also even with the MM minimum being 31, people are still posting bids for higher than that, which I’m sure the dev’s will adjust accordingly depending on supply and demand to see what happens. However the current lowest offered price is still 48, and there are many people who fill their buy orders instantly for things like DW, RAT, PE, MCG, etc.
That 31 minimum is to ensure a profit can still be made in the event DW stockpiles are overloaded. In which case those people bidding for .01 above MM price are going to buy a bunch from someone looking to dump a large stockpile, and either keep it for personal use, or sell it later at 48 and make a turn over.
Again, you’re only going by the MM offering price and that’s just to make it cost affordable in the event there are no prefabs offered on a planet where it’s impossible to make prefabs (Prom) unless buying something off the market or shipping it in. With a little patience, some people selling prefabs will sell them for 10-15% less than MM price and maybe even less sometimes, just have to put your bid in and wait for them to arrive.
In T2, with HYF+INC there is at least a possibilty to be able to produce C on a bad-soil world…
The same does not apply for any minerals or ores…
So at the long term the only purpose of Prom is to deliver water to HYFs?
You see it as “natural law” that Prefabs should be made where the Ore is…
But why? only because shipping of Ore is not lucrative (“too heavy, too low margin”)?
That some products loose weight is normal: FEO->FE, not all of the ore is FE, so there is a pile of “trash”
But regarding the material going into the prefabs: 17 t of Iron for a wall that is .5 t afterwards? Every craftsman would be crying if you carry 17 t of whats-o-ever to a construction site and afterwards carry 16.5 t of it away as “trash”? (has to go somewhere)
If i take an example: google says a german house (brick) weighs more than 200 t… with the same conversion rate, you would need about 10.000 t materials… that would be about 400 truckloads! No way!
So this “natural law” that prefabs should not be made at Prom only exists because shipping prefabs is so much cheaper than shipping the raw products. I hope the devs will change this in the next round… (any statement from them?)
Montem has no soil and both Limestone and Iron Ore, so Montem is where you should be if you want a planet where you can harvest the materials and make prefabs and be able to use at HYF to at least make RAT supplies which would be much more efficient then trying to produce prefabs on Prom.
Um, no. It’s better to make the prefabs where the ore is because you spend less to make it and can maximize profits when selling. That’s math, not natural law. You should learn some of both though.
Well yeah that happens in most -real- refining and manufacturing processes, especially in smelting. That ‘trash’ is all the dirt and impurities that are removed from the metal when extracting it from the ore to make it pure, as do most metals.
Again, your understanding seems to be lacking. First off, they’re prefabs, that means they get built first then shipped to the construction site to be assembled, seeing as they’re much more workable being only .5T. Secondly, you’re just saying that prefabs should weigh more and as I said that would just make it more costly to ship them.
…Iron has much more density than brick. 200T of iron occupies a much, much smaller -space- than 200T of brick. So it would only take 40 truckloads to ship that 200T of iron, not 400 like it would the bricks. You’re using improper math…and google.
Again, it’s not natural law. It’s actual math and economics that say it’s -most- profitable to build prefabs on a planet where the ore can also be mined and processed. Faster with an appropriate CoGC program too.
And pretty sure that I’m speaking for the dev’s, and most others it seems, as there has yet to be anyone post in agreement. With valid feedback even.
Why do prefabs take 17 tons of material and get reduced to 0.5 t?
With Ore: i agree. Better smelt them where the source is, as there is enough “dirt” in it.
With prefabs: i continue to disagree! Please tell me: where do the 16.5 t of material go? Do they disappear? As Gorron quoted the manual: BBH is a wall segment! You assemble some iron parts (beams?) and LST and get a wall. But where does the material go?
17 tons is a truckload, you give that to someone and the result would fit in my car trunk?
Could a dev PLEASE give some comments?
Btw:
Um, no. It’s better to make the prefabs where the ore is because you spend less to make it and can maximize profits when selling. That’s math, not natural law. You should learn some of both though.
This is not “general” math, but just some strange thing in this game… sure, “at it is” this is the better way ingame… and btw. I learned enough of both in real life to see that this is bullshit in this else nice game!
To get to the bits of iron in the ore, you have to smelt it out. Smelting involves heating up ore until the metal becomes spongy and the chemical compounds in the ore begin to break down. Most important, it releases oxygen* from the iron ore, which makes up a high percentage of common iron ores.
To create a ton of pig iron, you start with 2 tons (1.8 metric tons) of ore, 1 ton of coke (0.9 metric tons) and a half ton (0.45 metric tons) of limestone. The fire consumes 5 tons (4.5 metric tons) of air*.
The open-hearth furnace is one way to create steel from pig iron. The pig iron, limestone -and more- iron ore go into an open-hearth furnace. It is heated to about 1,600 degrees F (871 degrees C). The limestone and ore form a slag that floats on the surface. Impurities, including carbon, are oxidized and float out of the iron into the slag. When the carbon content is right, you have carbon steel.
So do you see the vast amount of mass that becomes lost when raw materials are refined? If anything you could -maybe- argue that the recipe should yield 1 additional prefab, which will only result in people making who are making them properly tend to lower the price and reduce the value of yours further.
Again, the weight if based on the actual density. The size of your car trunk is volume. Iron weighs 222kg / 491lbs per cubic foot. So if your car trunk is an average sedan with roughly 17 cubic feet of trunk space, you could -fit- a cube of wrought iron in there which would weigh 3,774 kg / 8320 lbs / 4.6T however it would collapse the car.
Now, since bricks was used as an example, let’s figure out the amount of -volume- , 4.6 tonnes of red brick would take up. Red bricks are 119 lbs / 54 kg per cubic foot. With your 17 square foot trunk, it can -fit- 2,023 lbs / 918kg worth of red bricks. So you would need a total 4 cars to transport the red bricks that weigh the same as your 1 car load of wrought iron.
The only plausible debate would be that the recipe should give more yield for the materials, -or- that the prefabs should weigh more. A standard steel I-beam weighs ~3,136lb / 1422kg. But this -is- a game plus inertia in space. And you’re also ignoring the usage of AL instead of FE.
Oh it’s math, not bullshit. Can demonstrate easily enough. Someone on Prom, trying to make prefabs, has to buy FEO or ALO, if they have a smelter, incinerator, and collector to also get the O and C required to process FEO to FE.
So using the FE, as that is the only one PP1 can produce with anyways, someone making prefabs on Prom would have to purchase 6 FEO minimum, because there is no iron ore on Prom. Already that is $480 with FEO at it’s current price on Prom. Also they need to buy LST, as that cannot be found on Prom and they cost $60 per, one minimum for a BSE. Brings the total to spend to $540.
Someone on Montem, with a HYF, SME, INC, COL, EXT, can gather and refine everything (O, C, FEO, LST) needed to produce at the PP1 without having to buying anything. Pure profit. No -$540.
I am going to clean this thread up here, Don’t reply to anything above this post the majority of the replies are from misunderstanding what the person said in the first place.
Actually your original post was addressed properly, both by myself and a member of the dev team. You just continued to deviate on a tangent for the sake of making sense out of your own misunderstanding of how things are intended to function in this game, not conform so you don’t have to bother knowing there are two other balance sheets.
Yes! Sorry first of all for the long absence. I’ve been on sick leave for about a week and didn’t do much of anything. Let me jump in by first quoting my reply to the other post:
The numbers are all evolving due to balancing adjustments and sometimes might not make sense if you think about them realistically.
That being said, we do aim for some degree of realism, and constructing a .5 ton wall from 15 tons of metal (for example) doesn’t make much sense to me at first glance. These kinds of things will most likely be addressed in future updates, and we’re grateful if you bring them up. We might sometimes deliberately opt for a less realistic solution in favor of balancing and gameplay.
To some of the other points that have been raised:
Some purposes of the MM have already been named. Originally, they were in fact not intended to stay around forever. We’re currently not sure if, how long, and in what form they will remain in future versions of the game. I will say this:
Selling to or buying from the MM is not supposed to be profitable in the long run. For that to be the case, we may need to adjust some prices. If you feel like an MM’s sell or buy price is off, let us know.
Restrictions on MMs (e.g. on the period during or price at which players are able to trade with them) have been discussed numerous times in the recent past. Some restrictions are most likely about to be implemented to steer the economy towards a more purely player-driven one.
Looking at the charts, I get the impression that almost all trades of DW and RAT on Promitor over the past 30 days were made between players exclusively. The MMs seem to work as intended in that they are only a fallback, while almost all the money is being made by actual farmers.
Those have been planned for a while and will be implemented at some point!
Regarding shipping costs: We made some changes to the cost and consumption of fuel. Producing fuel should be a viable career choice and flying must remain affordable. This is very hard to get right, and we’re keeping an eye on where it’s going next.
I hope this answers some questions. We know that some numbers and mechanics are not yet where they should be, but that’s what First Access is for. Thanks a lot for the feedback, keep it coming and keep it civil!
Thanks a lot for the feedback, keep it coming and keep it civil!